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Finding Hope in Exile with Niki Kirby | Faith, Purpose & The Garden of Exile

• Chuck Asbury

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In this episode of Panhandle Pulse, Chuck Asbury sits down with author, entrepreneur, and 30A resident Niki Kirby to discuss her new book, The Garden of Exile. Together they explore what it means to remain faithful during life's difficult seasons, why exile can become a place of growth instead of defeat, and how identity in Christ provides hope in a changing culture.

Niki shares her personal journey, the inspiration behind her book, parenting through uncertainty, entrepreneurship, taking bold risks, and how God often uses our hardest seasons to prepare us for something greater.

Whether you're navigating a challenging season, searching for purpose, or looking to strengthen your faith, this conversation offers practical encouragement and timeless biblical wisdom. 

Topics Covered:

  • The inspiration behind The Garden of Exile
  • Finding purpose during difficult seasons
  • Parenting and raising children in today's culture
  • Faith beyond religion
  • Entrepreneurship and trusting God's direction
  • Living with courage instead of fear
  • Discovering your God-given purpose

Connect with Niki Kirby:
🌐 https://nikikirby.com

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Pain Handle Pulse, the show that dives into real challenges and honest conversations shaping the Florida pain handle. I'm your host, Chuck Asbury. Each week we sit down with the people who make our community strong, sharing real issues, real conversations, and no filters. Hey guys, welcome back to Panel Post. I got a great guest today and Nikki Kirby. She's an author, entrepreneur, and lives here on 30A. So tell us your story. How did you find 30A and move to the area?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Well, the very short answer is that we had vacationed here for years, decided to just step and move to the beach. So many people's story, right? Yep. Same as the longer version is that my husband and I met when we were really young. So I was a senior in high school and we started dating, and he was an up-and-coming NASCAR driver, which is kind of random. Um and he raced for several years. When his racing career ended, we opened an ice cream store in Kentucky and had that for about 10 years, decided to sell it, and we're at a little bit of a pivotal point where we were like, okay, what's next? And our kids were young enough at the time to where they weren't super rooted in school yet. And we were like, let's move to the beach. And so we just up and moved to the beach. We didn't really have much of a game plan. Um, we actually initially thought we were going to get into the restaurant industry down here because that was our background. And when we got down here, um ended up more in real estate. And we've been down here for 10 years, and life's kind of, you know, twisted and turned. And there you go.

SPEAKER_00

Nice. So you met your husband in high school. I do the same at my wife.

SPEAKER_01

So we were at different high schools. He's two years older than me. We were both from Bowling Green, Kentucky.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So small town, both third generation. Actually, our grandparents were friends. Our dads went to high school together. So very like rooted in our hometown. But my parents had a store at the time that was across from his parents are in the funeral business.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And my mom had an antique store at the time that was right across from that. And I worked there my senior year in high school. And so Stuart would see me and he came over and talked, and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we sort of moved the same way 10 years ago when our son was young enough to move into the area. Vacation here forever. It's just an amazing place, but it has drastically changed over the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_01

So different. It's a little busier.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a little bit. Busier.

SPEAKER_01

And I don't know if I'm just getting older and it's like Perimenapause, but it feels hotter too. Right. So it's impressive.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah. So you've uh been down here, you've started your own business, and now you're an author and wrote a book.

SPEAKER_01

So I did, yeah. So this is actually my second book. I wrote a book a couple years ago that was an advent devotional, like a Christmas, you know, like little short devotional for the advent season. And I loved it so much that I got kind of got the itch. And I've always loved communicating. I love people, and I have a heart for ministering to people, but I knew it was never going to be in like a formal capacity. So I've never felt called to go work at a church or anything like that. I've worked in sales over the years and so worked very closely with women and had a team and all of that. And when I was thinking about this book, there were a couple of things that that made me want to do it. Number one is I just couldn't shake the itch. And I think any entrepreneur, it's just like it just keeps you up at night, right? But around COVID, around 2020, I felt like I had this sort of, I call it an apocalypse in the book because I explained that the word apocalypse means unveiling, like a revealing.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But you might call it an epiphany. I just felt like I was at this point where I couldn't shake some of the things that were kind of on my heart and on my spirit. Um, at the time my kids were, gosh, like sixth and third grade, second grade, something like that. And I just felt like there are things that I wanted them to know. And that has stayed with me. And last year, when I really started thinking about this book, it occurred to me that it was more than just my kids that I wanted to pass this information to. And so it started really as just a way for me. This is kind of morbid, but I was like, if I died tomorrow, what do I want Sophie and Jude to know? And I started writing and it really poured out of me. And I realized that there is this story here that I felt like the world needed to know. I have a pretty strong sense of urgency around it. And it took about six months to write the book, which in the author world is kind of quick.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But in hindsight, I'm like, it was a lifetime to write it, you know. So yeah, I'm very, very excited about it and very excited for people to get it in their hands.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So how did you come up with the name, the Garden of Exile? Where did that come into?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. So let me tell you the background of the book. So during 2020, I remember being like, what is happening? Like, I feel like the world is burning and I still have to do laundry. Like it was this really weird juxtaposition of like, okay, like I've got to, you know, get my kids to school and I've got to do laundry and I've got to, you know, work as usual. And also it seems like something really big has shifted in the world. And it was just this strange dichotomy of like something's going on. Right. And so during that time, I heard a sermon online from a pastor out in like Portland or something. And he was talking about what do you do during a really significant season of like change and upheaval? And he talked about this story in the book of Jeremiah in the Old Testament where the Israelites had been taken captive and were living as exiles in Babylon. And it happened in stages. And so the prophet Jeremiah was still in Jerusalem. And God gave him a letter to send to the people that were living there. So they're in this area. It's not what they chose, it's not what they expected. Um, the culture is a little hostile, and everything that they had planned, it was like this, this is not supposed to be this way, right? So we've all felt that way. And so God sends them this letter by way of Jeremiah. And when you read it, it's so counterintuitive that you're like, wait a minute, what? Like you would think it would be kind of a call to arms and it would be like rise up, revolt. And instead, he opens with these two words that just knocked me down. And it was settle in, like, settle in. Okay. So you're in this place. This is what you need to do. And so Jeremiah 29, one through 14 is this letter telling them, like, here is how you are not only going to survive this literal exile, but come out thriving and flourishing. And I just remember reading this passage, and I was so struck by how relevant what God said thousands of years ago to literal exiles was today to us as kind of proverbial exile. And so that's where this was birthed.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Initially, it was going to be called just exile. And when I was working with my editor, she really encouraged me to like to add something to it. So, number one, it was a little bit less harsh, but we loved the idea of calling it the Garden of Exile because it was kind of a play on the Garden of Eden. Yep. And it occurred to us as we were writing, it started as based on just that one small, like micro exile story. But as I was really unpacking this, it occurred to me, exile is the meta-narrative of the Bible. It is the theme of scripture. And if you've ever read it, you you know, we we started in a garden, we were exiled from that garden. And then if you read all the way to the end, we will be returned eventually. And so there's this theme of people being in a place where we really are not meant to be. We're not meant to live with this pain and the suffering and and the hardships that we have as humans. Our souls are not meant for this world. So it is a form of exile. And then, you know, there's all these little micro stories all throughout it as well. And so I loved the idea of a garden in exile. I loved the imagery of, you know, like almost like a beautiful flower growing up out of a crack in the sidewalk, how it's like we're we're not where we wanted to be. This is not what it's supposed to look like. And going back to 2020, I just remember almost like a grieving, especially during the lockdowns, of feeling like this is not the childhood I envisioned for my kids. I did not picture them having to have this um almost like a trauma to their childhood. And, you know, I've spoken to so many parents over the years, especially the ones whose kids were like teenagers at the time. They, you know, they couldn't graduate, they couldn't do all of these things. And then ever since 2020, it seems like there's just been like this upheaval, you know, in our world. And there are times when I think we we kind of get nostalgic about our childhood. And it's it's sad to think that our kids don't have the lack of cares that maybe we had. Not that everything was easy in the 90s or the 80s, but at the same time, it's not supposed to be this way, right? That's not what our kids' childhood is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00

It's totally different from where we grew up. Like you look at, I watched the old the commercials, and if you're an 80s, 90s kid, you see you go out and you're you don't come back until the lights come on versus now and technology, how it's changed the world today. And again, I I think it's neat how you tied exile and scripture in there because in the Bible it's all throughout it. You see it throughout through Jericho, through all of the stories. But how do you tie it to your everyday life and think most people think exile's a bad thing? Like it's you're you're down and out. But how did you take that and and put that into showing that that that's just a starting point? That's where God wants you to be at the moment.

SPEAKER_01

You know, it's really interesting because I had a conversation with the pastor when I was writing the book, and he kind of gave me a little pushback. He was like, exile is always because of punishment. And it kind of challenged me to look at it and I was like, I don't, I mean, I guess you could kind of split hairs here a little bit because obviously exile from the garden was a form of, you know, consequence or punishment. Right. The story of Jeremiah, they were exiled, it was a punishment. It was a form of punishment. But I don't necessarily believe that all exile. Like if you go through, I'm not somebody that subscribes to the, you know, there's a formula. If you do one plus one, good things are gonna happen. I just don't think that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

And so, you know, when I was thinking about the book, I I really wanted to make sure that I communicated to people that you might not be where you want to be. It might not be, you know, you might be suffering. It might be something that no platitude is gonna soothe you right now. But God can meet you there and he can pull plans and purposes out of there. And, you know, it's like there's it's one of those things where it it's probably somebody smarter than me could explain this better. But I think God is omnipotent. I think he's omnipresent. But I'm not somebody that's like he wills every bad thing to happen. You know, I mean, I think that there's like this nuance there. And so I think learning to step into this where it's like, okay, I don't know why this is happening. My my family, my kids are big, like, but why, but why? And and they come by that naturally. And I think that there's, you know, I think there's a lot of beauty to asking hard questions and to wrestling, but it'll drive you crazy if you try and figure out why. Like again, because it's like you're looking for the formula. And so I think it was uh, you know, I think it was really important for me to express to people that there is this story that explains things a little bit, but it's not gonna try and just like gloss over and kind of, you know, whitewash all of your problems.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Right. And I mean, I I think that's great, too. And the plus with pastors and some good and bad, but they'll they'll take their interpretation of the Bible is very interpreted in the way that God speaks to you, because that's how it's supposed to be used. So it may speak differently to me than it does you and our listeners. Right. But again, exile is the same as Jesus is out in the desert with a serpent. Like that was not an exile of of Jesus, it was a growing pattern or growing phase for Jesus to the same. So there is all different forms of exile and times learned. I think what happens is um, and I don't know if you describe this in your book, but you go through that phase, but it's also a phase that you're growing for something more and stronger in the future.

SPEAKER_01

So I talk a lot about the word sanctification, which is like a big churchy kind of Christianese word. And let me just say for the record, I don't like that this is the way that it is, and I will have words with Jesus when I die. But it it would appear that a lot of times pressure, suffering, hardship is kind of part of the process. Right. And so I, you know, I there's a lot of stories, a lot of personal stories uh throughout the book. And there have been seasons of just great pain personally in my life that I don't like and I don't understand. And also on the other side of it, I mean, I'm not gonna say that it was like this tidy, you know, everything worked out okay for everything.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But I can also see how it shapes you throughout that. And so I think, you know, if if our goal is to there's a pastor that says, you know, it's for the for the good of others and the glory of God. You know, if we're to be reflections and ambassadors of of Jesus in a world and we're supposed to make the world more Eden-like, more garden-like, then sometimes I think that includes, you know, having our rough edges kind of rubbed off a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And the we've had that experience. I mean, I don't know if there's anyone that's listening that is honest with their stuff that hasn't gone through tough times or struggles. But I think just like you used a perfect part, God reduces our rough edges because it uses us in later times for something that you didn't realize was going to happen, where you can help somebody else out with a story or support or an effort. Um, but during going through that, all you can do is sort of inward focus. So how do you motivate them to think of the better outcome when they're going through those difficult times?

SPEAKER_01

So I think a couple of things. I have a phrase that I sort of repeat to myself, and I talk about this in the book. Um, the only way out is through. The only way out is through. And I have a personal story where I was in a season where we we just had a lot going on. There was something just really almost devastating, kind of behind the scenes that I was wrestling with. And I had just been praying for breakthrough, breakthrough, breakthrough. And I I will never forget sitting in a car in a parking lot, waiting for a kid to get out of an appointment with like a tutor or something like that. And I was just bawling. And I was like, God, I need breakthrough. I need breakthrough. And I said, I'm so broken right now. I feel so broken. And all of a sudden, in that moment, it occurred to me, I'm like, oh my goodness, breakthrough, like broken, going through. I'm like, okay, the only way out is through. And sometimes that includes being broken. And so, you know, I think for me, there are a couple of things that really anchor me. And in my faith, one of the things that my parents have always said, my parents were in lay ministry and college ministry for my entire life growing up. And my mom has this saying where she says, if I believe, then I have to believe. Like if you believe it, then you have to believe it. And, you know, I think I have to, I must preach the gospel to myself sometimes and say, okay, if I really believe this, if this really is true, then it changes everything. Right. And I think the only thing when you are just at your lowest point that could even remotely give somebody hope when they are in the pit of despair is the hope of all things being made new in the afterlife. And so one of my favorite authors is John Eldridge. I don't know if you've ever read any of his books, but his book, All Things New, is fantastic. And he talks about how it doesn't say he's making all new things.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

It says that he will come and he will renew all the things. Like every bit of pain and suffering, there will be reward. And how we almost have gotten away in the Western church from the idea of reward. Like we almost had this false sense of martyrdom. And that's actually not what motivated the early church. They were highly motivated by reward. And so I think for me, if I ever get to the place where I'm, you know, almost at despair. And if I was talking to somebody else, you can't promise someone if they're, you know, watching a loved one die or if they're going through something catastrophic. You cannot, in good faith, look at them and say, God's going to fix everything. Right. Because that's just not true. Yeah. And I feel like the the church has gotten in a lot of trouble over the years because people want, they want that easy, you know, smoothed over thing. But what you can say is God is real.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

He is near, he's with you. And one day, even if it's not this side of heaven, he will make all things new. And I think that's again kind of going back to the story of exile, is it's an arc, right? Like it's a circle. It's like it started in a garden, it ends in a garden city. And if you believe that, it anchors you in this hope that helps you to kind of rise above your circumstances and you have this deep-rooted sense of purpose that kind of motivates you when it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think it's great. I think the thing with churches is there's so many different types and styles of church and preaching now and the way the churches are getting mega churches, small churches, so on, but that people that find scripture on their own through books or through other ways are still meaningful and connecting to God in the same forms or fashions without that. But the the plus is as we said, the Bible speaks to each person individually, right? And that's the way the word should be. And in your book and others the same way, they're gonna get pieces out of it that's gonna be helpful and meaning to for them. So that's the hope, right?

SPEAKER_01

Uh you know, I I feel like going back to it's not supposed to be this way. I grew up, uh, so my dad was a chiropractor, my mom worked, and they were lay ministers in college ministry. So I was at church every time the doors were open. You know, I like I don't know if you have you ever seen Nate Bargatsky, the comedian. Yeah. Have you ever heard him talk about 90s church parents? Like 90s Christians were the Christianish Christians. Like that was that was my upbringing. Um, and my parents were fantastic, but we were there all the time. So Bulling Green, Kentucky in the 90s, it was very cultural. Like it was part of my um, you know, upbringing. Right. Whereas when we moved down here, there is a little bit of a cultural difference. It's a lot harder to get your kids to church than I thought. So, I mean, we we've really struggled with this, where sometimes I feel like, man, I haven't, they they don't have all the knowledge that maybe I had. They haven't had the exposure. And so when I was writing the book, I again going back to my two children, Sophie and Jude, I kept thinking, what do I want them to know? I want them to know this story because it changes everything. And I want them to know it's not about the rules. It's not about, you know, the, it's not even about the the morality side of it. It's it's that you're living this story and it's real. And so I pulled, you know, parts of the Bible and and shared it in a way that, again, if nothing else, if they read this, I hope that it is the entryway for them to be curious enough to to really dig into for anybody, not just for my kids, uh, to really want to explore more. I like to think of myself as like the Walmart reader for Jesus. I'm like, listen, I'm not your like theologically trained master here. There are people that are so much smarter than me, and I can I can send you all of their books and podcasts. But what I am is I think I'm a good spark plug where I'm like, okay, like let's get, let's do this. Like, come in the door. I promise it's fun in here. It's really interesting. And so that was kind of my hope with the book is that anyone that reads it, whether it's somebody that's a seasoned, practiced Christian, they've been, you know, a part of a church their whole life, or somebody that is just spiritually seeking and curious that maybe doesn't identify as a Christian, that they would read this and there would there would be almost like a freshness to it where they see that okay, this is maybe not what I thought it was. This is interesting. So not that it's necessarily saying anything new or different, but that maybe it's it's displaying it in a way that maybe they haven't heard before.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that was a great point, a Walmart greeter for Jesus. That's like, no, that's awesome because that's exactly what we're supposed to be. Like even the pastors that went to theology school and all of that, there's a purpose for that because they're teaching lessons in the Bible, but we're all like part of Jesus. We're all part of the greeter where one or two are gathered, he is there. So that's the whole part of it. So that's that's I've never thought of it as a Walmart greeter part, but it's great.

SPEAKER_01

So it's funny. And there's a chapter in my book where it talks about being image bearers. Yeah. So when I really started researching this idea of being image bearers, the analogy that I was uh reading that I thought was really interesting is it's like, you know, in like a movie about, you know, where there's like kings and queens or something like that. I don't know, from hundreds of years ago, there would be people that were an ambassador for the king. And the king would give him his signet ring.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so because of that signet ring, they had all of the authority and backing to act as the king's ambassador. So it was, you know, that signet ring meant that they carried the weight and the authority that the king did wherever they went. And that's kind of the same thing that we as humans, as the imagio day, and I'm probably saying that wrong, as the image bearers of God, we carry that. And so with that, part of what Jesus, I think, meant when he was saying the kingdom of heaven is here, the kingdom of heaven is here, is that we are bursting through the darkness. Like we're planting gardens in exile as God's ambassadors, as the Walmart greeters, as people who are just like, okay, this is what God looks like. He looks like this. He looks like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. He looks like perseverance when you want to despair. He looks like, you know, healing and togetherness and all of these things that our world, I think, desperately needs. And it doesn't necessarily look like this rigid list of rules and these activities and this formula that I think has turned so many people off of this beautiful, organic, life-giving faith.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And I think what's great is our our younger generation now, just in this past few years, are are starting to go back to church or starting to find God more, starting to read the Bible and that again through different denominations. But how did you support your kids in growing up that? Because again, Drew moving down here, the churches on Sunday, all the tourists in the area too. So we did online and it reads the Bible, but how how did you do that to help support your kids?

SPEAKER_01

So I would say the most fundamental rooted thing I tried to do is just to embody and live out my own faith and to talk about them, to talk to them, you know, both about things that I'm struggling with, things that I think. I tried to have, you know, to where they would see me praying, reading scripture, what have you. We've been, we, you know, we go to church, probably not as much as we should. So they have been, you know, anchored in church again, not like 90s Christians. Right. Not like the Christian Christians. Um, but I think one of the main things that I have, I would say, if I was talking to somebody with younger kids, is that I've given my kids a safe space to wrestle because it's very important to me that the their faith is their own and that it's not just borrowed because I think that's what happens to people when they walk away, is that it was never really theirs to start with, right? They didn't fully understand it. And so when my kids have really hard questions, when they're really wrestling, it's scary, right? As a parent, it's kind of terrifying. And also I've just I I felt like God has kind of whispered to me, like, I'm I'm big enough to handle. You know, and think about that story where Jacob wrestled with God. And then afterwards, God changed his name, called him blessed. Then he was Israel after that. But he walked with the limp. And so I'm I'm a big fan of wrestling. You know, it's funny, people use the word deconstruction a lot. And I get it. Like there's a lot of negativity around this whole deconstruction movement. My philosophy is if people are genuinely stripping down what they believed and they're searching for truth, like they're gonna land on Jesus because he is the truth. And so, you know, I think I've prayed like crazy over my kids. I mean, I'm like, I feel like the older I get, the more charismatic I get. I'm like, I don't, I mean, I'm like a, you know, a snake away from being a Pentecostal at this point. I mean, not really, but kind of. But I mean, I've like, I mean, I feel like I've like stormed the gates of hell in prayer for my kids when we've needed it. Um, you know, I've talked to them about it. We found a church that we feel like really that they really like. They, they both, it's interesting. They, again, they come by this naturally.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They both don't want something just given to them as like, this is what you do just because they're both questioners. And so I needed to find an environment for them that was less about like, okay, here are the rules and more of like, let's talk about the story. And so I feel like we found that. And and our pastor, we get a simple faith with Ronnie McBreyer. And probably he's a phenomenal storyteller. He is just incredible. And my kids actually will sit there and listen to him, which is, you know, a feat in the TikTok world. So yeah. So that I mean, I feel like ask me again, maybe in 10 years when they're a little bit older, they're 17 and 13. So we're still kind of in the thick of it. Right. But I I mean, I've just have tried my very best. And you know, my husband and I've just done the best we can. And at the end of the day, I think I'm I'm the oldest of four, and all four of us are wildly different. We cannot be more different. And so that's both terrifying and comforting as a parent because I look at my parents and I'm like, okay, four people, same household, completely different. And so it gives comfort because you're like, okay, it's not really entirely up to you. There's no formula. It's also terrifying because you're like, oh crap, like I really don't have control over this. And so, you know, I mean, I think that's again where you just have to just be like, okay, God, like, I I trust you with my treasure here, you know.

SPEAKER_00

So Yeah, and they're gonna go through ebbs and flows too, just like you were saying in in their journey through life, which is good and also terrifying too, because you're when they're in the exile or in the valley, you're like, are they gonna be able to push through and come back, or are they not relying on God so much and turn into social media? But I think just your example of your your family, everyone changes and goes through those paths before.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, I mean, I like I said, I don't, I don't have a I don't have an easy answer for that one. I don't and I and to be honest, it really bugged me when people tried to give me easy answers early on because I was like, that's not helping.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'm like, that's not working. Or when you would, I would read a parenting book and it would be so straightforward. And I'm like, but that's not our situation. It's not our, you know, and so I will say I think marriage and parenting, and I talk about this. There's a chapter where it's based on so each chapter is based on a verse in this passage. And one of the verses is, you know, get married, like multiply, get married, have kids, like, you know, have grandkids. And so I talk about what it means to multiply in exile. And I talk about how it is probably the greatest form of sanctification to have to live with these other humans that have different wirings, different backgrounds, you know, all of these things, and to, you know, to be in close proximity to sinful people, to broken people or more of your you have kids, and just how that process can make or break you, right? Like it can, it can, and I think I I think that even though it's been brutally hard in seasons, I think that it has absolutely been the sanctification of my life to, you know, to do this. And I think parenting will just, I mean, it will break you all the way down sometimes. So and my kids are great kids. I mean, they're really good kids, but we have, you know, I mean, it will just yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's tough. You didn't think it's that tough when you're as a kid yourself. You're like, oh, our parents have it easy, and then you become a parent and you're like, how in the world did my parents survive? Like the stuff. And that was back then when there wasn't all the cell phones and that. You talked about showing and being that uh that example. And I think that's a a huge way that we teach our son and our family and anyone in our lives, just being the example and doing acts of goodness or anything that you feel God's calling you to do without worrying about what happens, right? Like the results. Just I always told you we're we're seed sowers. You don't know what's gonna grow, you don't know what it is, but we're just called to go out and plant the seeds. Somebody else may water them, somebody may not, but that's our goal. We're not supposed to find out what happened to it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and nurture it. So we've always tried to teach him that of if you're called to do it, do it and don't worry about what's gonna happen from it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I love that.

SPEAKER_00

And it's it's been good because you you also have the same people that are like questioning why you've you've done something to. And you're like, and people in the church are like, Why would why would you do that? And we're like, well, that we were called to do it. We're called to do this, and maybe it's all gonna get wasted, maybe it's not. Yeah. But it someday maybe it showed him something that he needed to see for future reference.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's something I wish we've went to a bunch of churches down here and churches all through West Virginia when we're there. They they need to sort of preach a little bit more of like, don't worry about what you're called to do if you feel prompted to do it, to do it and not worry about the the what the outcome is.

SPEAKER_01

So years ago, I read a book called Garden City by an author named John Mark Comer. And I mean, I quote him all through on my books. He is, he's fantastic. And the honestly, the garden of exile, that kind of pulled a little bit from his book. But one of his his whole driving points through this book is so the subtitle is Work, Rest, and the Art of Being Human. And he talks about work as something that we we did even before the fall. So work is not a punishment. Our individual gifts, talents, passions, what have you, they're all here to make this like beautiful tapestry, to make the world better. And so whether that is, you know, the person that's supposed to be a doctor or the person that is supposed to be a caregiver, or the person that's supposed to be an innovator or involved in technology, something, how this can all come together and how you can actually glorify God through that. And I think that was one of my favorite epiphanies when I read a book, because it what that means is that you can both glorify God, you can be a seed planter, you can bring heaven to earth, and you can do it in a way that feels so uniquely aligned with your gifts and talents and purposes. And it doesn't have to look like anybody else's. And I think once you realize that it frees, it frees people up to just be creative and have a lot of fun with it. You know, I think when you're out of alignment, when you're doing something, this is like the worst example ever. And it's gonna make me sound not very nice. But I remember when my kids were little in vacation Bible school. I mean, just shoot me. Like I mean, I would literally rather do anything than volunteer at vacation Bible school. I'm like, this is not playing to my gifts and talent. I have children. I don't want to go around everybody else's children for a week. Like it was just, I and I did it one year and I just was so stressed out about it. Now, this is not to say that you should not volunteer at vacation Bible school. Vacation Bible school is important. But for me, it was so not where my gifts and talents were. And it wore me out, it made me exhausted. There was probably a little bit of like almost resentment. Like, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Whereas historically, when I've done something that's more aligned with my, you know, gifts and talents, when I've, you know, maybe organized a women's group or something like that, feels almost easy. Not easy, but just there's this like alignment. It's like the puzzle piece fits. So round peg, round hole, not square peg round, round hole. And I think that that's probably the first step is to just prayerfully with God discern like what really, what really gets me up in the morning? What, what am I good at? Like what do I feel, you know, what lights me up? And I think once you start there, then you kind of start to see all of these opportunities. And, you know, it's I think that it frees you up. It frees you to free other people up because you don't put the same expectations maybe on your friend or your neighbor or your children to do the same thing. Um, and and it, it's, it's, I think it's a really beautiful thing. Like I said, it's like this tapestry.

SPEAKER_00

And so how long did it take you to realize that? Like, yeah, I've volunteered at vacation Bible school before too. Um but anything in life. So how where did you find that you identified your strengths that light you up and do and enjoy doing?

SPEAKER_01

So I feel like I probably did earlier than others because I have parents that are system buckers. And so, you know, my my parents were we're all kind of cowboys, like that that runs in our DNA. So I witnessed it and I think I was more comfortable stepping into it. And even my husband and I, like his path has been non-traditional as well. And so I would say I still get nervous with certain risks and going outside of the you know, beaten path, but I'm probably a little less risk adverse when it comes to opportunities than most. Now, I'm scared of my shadow. Like, don't ask me to do anything fast or scary, you know, anything like that. But when it comes to opportunities, I think I'm maybe a little bit more comfortable. Now, there is a shadow side to that, which is sometimes I can like get so cowboy that I have to be reined in and remember that I do need to submit to authority and all of that. So, but for somebody that maybe didn't have the same background, I think it's it's maybe stopping to examine uh what is it that I'm scared of here? You know, like again, the the first conversation would be like, what makes me really excited? What am I good at? God, what is it that I feel in my spirit? I think that only comes from prayer and quiet time and just reflection, maybe journaling.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but the second would be what's what's getting in the way here? Like what scares me? Why, what is it that I'm worried about? Is it that I'm worried about failing? Is it that I'm worried about what people would think? Is it, you know, that I am just confused? Like there's a lot there to unpack because I'm not gonna say that I always and just rush into it. There's still times when I feel maybe pressure to do things and get kind of off off track for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that that's I think that's great. We have multiple times in my my life, and I'm sure is yours, you feel God calling you to do something, and you feel like it's just too far of a step away. Yeah. Like, how do you do that? This is outside of my realm, outside of what I know. But you you feel like you're comfortable in doing it, but you're just like, I just can't take that step. It's just a step too far. How do you like transition to get out of the scared part and do it?

SPEAKER_01

So, a couple of things. Um, Mark Batterson, he's an author, he's a pastor from Washington, DC, and he has some great books I read in my 20s. And it was around the time my husband was racing. And so, little background of Stuart, my husband. He grew up racing go-karts, and I mean, he spent years of his life working towards this. And he actually made it. He raced um, you know, his first cup race, he started behind Jeff Gordon. Like it was a really cool experience. But towards the end of his career, when we could sense that things were shifting, I remember feeling that was probably my first adult experience. We got married young. I was 21 when we got married, of being like, wait a minute, this isn't supposed to be this way. And so we were faced with this situation where we, it wasn't like this path that we had planned. It wasn't easy, you know, and we had to take some risks. We had to figure out what we were gonna do. And I remember reading Mark Batterson's books, and he wrote this book called In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Great book.

SPEAKER_01

It's a great book. It's one of my favorites. And, you know, he just talked about how we live sometimes as if the goal of life is to arrive at death safely. And he has these great one-liners. Yep. Sticky statements are like, you know, you can highlight all over his book. And I just remember reading that and being like, huh. You know, like I, so I'm an Enneagram six, which safety is like, that's what I crave. Okay. And so it's funny that my dad was a risk taker, my husband is a risk take. Like, I feel like that God is like your whole life, I'm gonna force you to be out of time. You know, like this is what you're gonna do. Um, and so I act like that. Um that part of it has definitely been hard fought to get there. But, you know, I I remember so dislike I can see the room that I was sitting in when I read that and just being like, oh my gosh, like, okay, like risk is part of it, right? Like we've got a risk. And then again, when we decided to move down here, I mean, it was a it was a big risk. We left a business. We left um Stuart's family was he, you know, he could have gone into the family business, and that that is hard to walk away from. We walked away from roots and we did not have a plan. But there's a story in the Bible. So, you know, everybody knows the story of Moses parting the Red Sea. Well, there's another story of God parting waters, and it's when the Israelites were crossing, I believe it's the Jericho River. Is that or the it's a river in the Bible? And what's interesting is the priests were carrying the Ark of the Covenant instead of like the Red Sea, where it was like, okay, they get to the edge and the water parts. God actually asked them to put their feet in the water before he parted it. And so I think of that analogy a lot where it's like sometimes if you feel the call and there's a little bit of like a clouding of the path, I think that you just have to put your feet in the water and you just have to do it. My husband would say it in less spiritual terms, and he would be like, There's something really good about having your back against the wall and like just forcing you to like you just figure it out.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

He's a big, he's a big fan of that. And so, you know, I think I think sometimes you just figure it out, you know. I don't think God's will is like a bullseye. Like you, I I think I used to think that way again when I kind of subscribed to this idea that maybe there was a formula, and if I mess it up, then you know the whole plan's right. That's not how it is. Your whole thing's shot to heck. And so I think understanding that we do have the free will and the authority to creatively make decisions and mistakes, right? You know, and you can kind of fail your way forward a little bit. Um, my husband says to my kids, if you're if you're not failing, you're not growing, you're not learning. And that's easier said than done. Right. But we're a society that's really afraid to fail and afraid to look stupid. And, you know, I never forget my dad said to me one time, he was like, you got to ask yourself, what's the worst thing that could happen? Right. What's the worst thing that could happen? And he said, most of the time, if it's a money issue, if money's a problem, then it's not a problem, right? You can fix it. Like, what's the worst thing that happened? You lose all your money and you start over? Like it doesn't make you lose your ability to create future income. Yep. It would suck. You know, it would not be fun. But you know, if you make a mistake, you when we move down here, what's the worst thing that happened? We hate it, we move back home. Right. You know, it's like it's I know that that's kind of simplifying things, but really it helps me to just be like, all right, what's the worst thing that happens? You know, we'll figure it out. So everything's kind of figure outable.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. I think all you know, the entrepreneur, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, and all of them, and and Mark Addison's great. We went to go to his church and it's Ebenezer Coffee. Like I've been in his coffee shop and that's awesome. But he does he does the same thing. Great one-liner experience. Like, yeah, what's the worst that can happen if you fail? And we try to teach Drew that and everyone around like, is it a life or death changing situation, or are you just gonna fail, have to reset, and start over? But if you're starting something new and it fails, the worst thing can happen is you're broke and you start back over. Exactly. Especially in this world today, you're like, net, reset.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, my so my husband is uh he's in real estate now, and he's a uh he's a real estate developer and he's an agent as well. But and it's funny because sometimes I feel like real estate investing, it's like I have to remind myself that he's done his due diligence, he knows what he does. But sometimes it feels like high stakes poker a little bit. But again, you're just like every time you do something, every time you make an investment, you get a little bit less and less risk adverse. And you're like, okay, like what's the worst thing that could happen? You know, we just start over. And and the people that we know that are the most successful entrepreneurs and have really done well, they've they've failed a couple of times, you know. They they and they're not afraid to it. They're like, I mean, again, they're like betting it all on black. Like, let's do it. And so I think that there's this kind of steeliness that you just have to be like, number one, what's the worst thing that could happen? And again, not we're not talking about like life or death thing, but and not afraid to like roll up your sleeves and just say, if we have to, we'll just roll up our sleeves and and get back to work.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And do it again. So for for the the book, what's one thing that you hope that uh someone reading it gets out of it?

SPEAKER_01

And that's a hard question. Um, you know, I think my hope is that they discover that following Jesus, the Bible, that Christianity, if you will, is a story that we're living and not just one of many religions with rules and lists, that it is real, that it impacts everything, and that understanding this story of exile completely changes everything about your life because I feel like it anchors you in this purpose and it helps you to be able to be rooted enough to where no matter what life throws at you, you've got this anchoring and you've got this rootedness.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think that's amazing. If they they can come out of that and think the story of Jesus, not based on rules and obligations, would be huge for the readers.

SPEAKER_01

I hope so. I think that's kind of what I hope. And it's funny because the book's got some teeth, you know, it's not all like milk and honey. Like it's I don't shy away from that because I think the Bible has some teeth. So I think rediscovering, like, wait a minute, there's a there's a whole lot of complaining and a whole lot of, you know, people doing some really stupid stuff in the Bible. And it's not just like this list of this is what you do, and everybody here is perfect, and you know, here's the formula. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I look forward to reading it. So how can people find the book? How can people follow you uh on social media and get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01

So nikkiKirby.com n I K I K I R B Y is the only place it's at right now. So I did kind of a soft pre-launch with the limited edition. It's really pretty.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's hardback and it has like the foil embossed. So right now, that is the only place. Uh big formal launch on Amazon. It's gonna be September 15th. So that'll be, you know, Amazon Target, like everywhere online that's are sold. But I wanted to do a soft launch for my friends and family first. So you can get it now. And I feel like I forgot to say this. There is also a companion book that goes with it. So I I wanted a way to really, no pen intended, have the information take root.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so I wanted something that was not exactly a study guide. I didn't want it to be overly academic. So it's kind of like I call it a field guide. It's like this kind of like a guided journal study guide, but it helps for you to really flesh out the ideas from the book. So you could do it simultaneously. It's a week a chapter. Okay. But you could also, and probably what my preference would be, you could read the book first, like in one fell swoop, and then follow up. So you're really kind of letting things percolate a little bit. So both of those are available on my website, and then my social media is just Nikki Erskine Kirby. Okay. Um, and then they'll be everywhere September 15th.

SPEAKER_00

All right, well, good. Congratulations on that. This will definitely be out for everyone to see before then, and hopefully, a lot of people will read it and then get intrigued by it.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. So, and send me questions. I'll love to have them.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much, Jack.

SPEAKER_03

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

If you liked it, be sure to follow and subscribe. I'll leave you with this what's the biggest issue you see in the pain handle right now? Join the conversation with me at Chuck Asberry II. I'd love to hear your thoughts.